For those interested, E.W. Bullinger's argument about Luke 23:43, to which Leolaia makes reference, can be found here.
John Kesler
JoinedPosts by John Kesler
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Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech
by kepler inin another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.
concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .
to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .
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Daniel 8:20,21 - what do secular authorities say?
by konceptual99 ini am looking for anything that suggests there is a rational explaination for daniel apparently predicting the rise of greece as a world power.
there is some stuff online suggesting that scholars years ago thought it was modified over time but evidence points to it having been written in the 6th centuary bc and they have been forced to correct their view.. is there anything anywhere that presents the accepted secular view of this passage?.
cheers.
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John Kesler
Leolaia:Then ch. 10-12 gave a parallel explication of Hellenistic history from the time of Alexander the Great to the present (165-164 BC), foreseeing a third campaign by Antiochus against Egypt which never occurred, and his death on Judean soil which never occurred. (Nor did the resurrection of the dead follow this as well)
Some apologists appeal to Porphyry, the third-century Neoplatonist enemy of Christianity, to prove that Antiochus IV really did engage in a third campaign against Egypt. Reading Porphyry--whose commentary about Daniel survives only in the writings of St. Jerome, who was rebutting them--it becomes obvious that Porphyry was so determined to prove that Daniel's "prophecies" are after-the-fact accounts about Antiochus that he aparently didn't consider that some passages in Daniel precede Antiochus' death. Porphyry tips his hand not only when he claims that Antiochus, contrary to every other historian, engaged in a third Egyptian campaign, but also when he claims that even the resurrection of the dead already occured--just figuratively so!
St. Jerome responding to Porphyry:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/je...el_02_text.htm
CHAPTER TWELVE
Verses 1-3. "But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who stands for the children of thy people, and a time shall come such as never occurred from the time that nations began to exist even unto that time. And at that time shall thy people be saved, even everyone who shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, that they may behold it always. But those who are instructed shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that instruct many as to righteousness, as the stars for all eternity." Up until this point Porphyry somehow managed to maintain his position and impose upon the credulity of the naive [reading imperitis for imperitus] among our adherents as well as the poorly educated among his own. But what can he say of this chapter, in which is described the resurrection of the dead, with one group being revived for eternal life and the other group for eternal disgrace? He cannot even specify who the people were under Antiochus who shone like the brightness of the firmament, and those others who shone like the stars for all eternity. But what will pigheadedness not resort to? Like some bruised serpent, he lifts up his head as he is about to die, and pours forth his venom upon those who are themselves at the point of death. This too, he declares, was written with reference to Antiochus, for after he had invaded Persia, he left his army with Lysias, who was in charge of Antioch and Phoenicia, for the purpose of warring against the Jews and destroying their city of Jerusalem. All these details are related by Josephus, the author of the history of the Hebrews. Porphyry contends that the tribulation was such as had never previously occurred, and that a time came along such as had never been from the time that races began to exist even unto that time. But when victory was bestowed upon them, and the generals of Antiochus had been slain, and Antiochus himself had died in Persia, the people of Israel |146 experienced salvation, (p. 576) even all who had been written down in the book of God, that is, those who defended the law with great bravery. Contrasted with them were those who proved to be transgressors of the Law and sided with the party of Antiochus. Then it was, he asserts, that these guardians of the Law, who had been, as it were, slumbering in the dust of the earth and were cumbered with a load of afflictions, and even hidden away, as it were, in the tombs of wretchedness, rose up once more from the dust of the earth to a victory unhoped for, and lifted up their heads, rising up to everlasting life, even as the transgressors rose up to everlasting disgrace. But those masters and teachers who possessed a knowledge of the Law shall shine like the heaven, and those who have exhorted the more backward peoples to observe the rites of God shall blaze forth after the fashion of the stars for all eternity. He also adduces the historical account concerning the Maccabees, in which it is said that many Jews under the leadership of Mattathias and Judas Maccabaeus fled to the desert and hid in caves and holes in the rocks, and came forth again after the victory (I Macc. 2.) These things, then, were foretold in metaphorical language (726) as if it concerned a resurrection of the dead. But the more reasonable understanding of the matter is that in the time of the Antichrist there shall occur a tribulation such as there has never been since nations began to exist. -
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Daniel 8:20,21 - what do secular authorities say?
by konceptual99 ini am looking for anything that suggests there is a rational explaination for daniel apparently predicting the rise of greece as a world power.
there is some stuff online suggesting that scholars years ago thought it was modified over time but evidence points to it having been written in the 6th centuary bc and they have been forced to correct their view.. is there anything anywhere that presents the accepted secular view of this passage?.
cheers.
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Scriptures seem to hint that Jehovah/Yahweh is a SON of God?
by EndofMysteries inafter the past few years of trying to really figure out what the bible is teaching and no influence, one of the things has been that possibly the god of the israelites may have been a son.
i want feedback on what i am about to show.
this is the tip of the iceberg, just one angle of what may be going on.
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John Kesler
EndofMysteries, you may be interested in this post that I made on another list; it touches on the issues and scriptures that you mention.
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John Kesler
The Genesis-1 creation account also shows no awareness of the size or number of the stars. The sun and moon are referred to as the "two great lights" (NRSV), while the stars are mentioned as an aside.
14 And God said, ‘Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.’ And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
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New World Translation Assaults on Language and Phrases that Always Wigged Me Out!
by DarioKehl ini listened to the august 4th episode of the healingxjws podcast where they interviewed a former jw circuit overseer.
he shared many great examples of how original meanings (especially poetry) were lost in this terrible translation.
it's worth listening to.
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John Kesler
I like the places where punctuation is added or changed to put the correct spin on a verse. Here are some examples:
Luke 23:42-43
42 And he went on to say: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
The comma is placed after "today" rather than "you," to avoid the implication that the thief would be in Paradise that very day. Compare how the NWT translates Luke 12:37, 18:17, 29, and 21:32.
1 Samuel 28:
11 At this the woman said: “Whom shall I bring up for you?” To this he said: “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw “Samuel” she began crying out at the top of her voice; and the woman went on to say to Saul: “Why did you trick me, when you yourself are Saul?” 13 But the king said to her: “Do not be afraid, but what did you see?” And the woman went on to say to Saul: “A god I saw coming up out of the earth.” 14 At once he said to her: “What is his form?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he has himself covered with a sleeveless coat.” At that Saul recognized that it was “Samuel,” and he proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth and to prostrate himself.
15 And “Samuel” began to say to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?” To this Saul said: “I am in very sore straits, as the Phi·lis´tines are fighting against me, and God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you to let me know what I shall do.”
16 And “Samuel” went on to say: “Why, then, do you inquire of me, when Jehovah himself has departed from you and proves to be your adversary? 17 And Jehovah will do for himself just as he spoke by means of me, and Jehovah will rip the kingdom away from your hand and give it to your fellowman David. 18 As you did not obey the voice of Jehovah, and you did not execute his burning anger against Am´a·lek, that is why this is the thing that Jehovah will certainly do to you this day. 19 And Jehovah will also give Israel with you into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Even the camp of Israel Jehovah will give into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines.”
20 At that Saul quickly fell down his full length to the earth and became very much afraid because of “Samuel’s” words.
The name Samuel is placed in quotation marks to avoid the plain reading that it really was Samuel appearing after death.
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Did Israel's Leader come from Bethlehem?
by Doug Mason inthe july 2012 issue of awake!
states that the narratives of jesus birth show that the bible is a book of accurate prophecy.. the aim of this study is to find out what the birth narratives do reveal about the nature of the bible.. what does investigation of the writings of micah, matthew, and luke reveal about the way that the bible should be read and applied?.
does this investigation open the door to a better comprehension of the nature of scripture?.
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John Kesler
Leolaia wrote: John Kesler....That's a quite typical henotheistic scheme of nations each following their own tutelary deity. There are many references to this throughout the OT.
I'm aware of the many passages which take a henotheistic view--Deuteronomy 32:8-9 perhaps being the most famous. See my post from five years ago on this topic, for example. It just seems that Micah 4:5 is in tension with vv. 2-3 and certainly with other conceptions, like that of Zechariah 14:16-21.
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Did Israel's Leader come from Bethlehem?
by Doug Mason inthe july 2012 issue of awake!
states that the narratives of jesus birth show that the bible is a book of accurate prophecy.. the aim of this study is to find out what the birth narratives do reveal about the nature of the bible.. what does investigation of the writings of micah, matthew, and luke reveal about the way that the bible should be read and applied?.
does this investigation open the door to a better comprehension of the nature of scripture?.
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John Kesler
Leolaia:Large sections were added to the oracle to describe the "remnant of Jacob" returning and instituting a universal worship of Yahweh (4:1-7, 5:7-15), a theme typical of early post-exilic works.
Why do you suppose that Micah 4:5 was inserted, or allowed to remain, in the text? It seems to regard as a given the worship of gods other than Yahweh by the other nations.
Micah 4:5
5 For all the peoples walk,
each in the name of its god,
but we will walk in the name of Yahweh our God
for ever and ever. -
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Failed Old Testament Prophecies
by Canary11 inthe tyre prophecy in ezekiel 29 is one failed prophecy.
nebuchadnezzar never destroyed and plundered tyre like he was predicted to..
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John Kesler
I write here about the failed prophecy that the kingdom of Judah would never end.
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How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;
by booker-t ini am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.
especially hellfire.
i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.
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John Kesler
Londo111 wrote: The Flood: I believe the Flood was a regional event in Mesopotamia.
Genesis 7:1-4, 21-23 reads as follows in the NRSV:7:1 Then Yahweh said to Noah, ‘Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and its mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and its mate; 3 and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.’ 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings; 22 everything on dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, human beings and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark. These passages seem pretty clear-cut: Yahweh flooded the whole world, so representatives of each animal, including birds, had to be preserved. This is born out in Genesis 8, where the animals disembarked: 15 Then God said to Noah, 16 ‘Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing that is with you of all flesh—birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth—so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.’ 18 So Noah went out with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 And every animal, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out of the ark by families.
If the local-flood theory is correct, and only an area of Mesopotamia was flooded, then why take any birds aboard the ark? Wouldn't birds be able to fly to nonflooded areas? We know specifically of two birds that were taken aboard the ark: the raven and the dove (Genesis 8:6-12). Since all birds were taken aboard "to keep their kind alive," then local-flood theorists must believe that in the over 1,000 years from creation to the Flood (keep in mind that Noah himself was 600 when the Flood came! Genesis 7:6, and see the Genesis-5 genealogy), neither ravens nor doves had populated areas beyond Mesopotamia, and thus had to be preserved.